Michał Karnowski talks to Jacek Sasin, MP for Law and Justice, Minister of State Resources. This is the first part of an extensive interview summarizing government work. The second, which mainly concerns state and economic affairs, will be published on Monday in the weekly magazine “Sieci”.
Michał Karnowski: Why, despite the formation of a parliamentary coalition by PO, TD and Left, is Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki trying to build his own government and gain a majority for it?
MINISTER JACEK SASIN: Let me turn the question around: why wouldn’t he try? This is the parliamentary tradition, this is what our voters expect from us, who are very afraid of the damage that Tusk’s regime can cause for Poland. And it is an investment in the future: we are showing different groups in the Sejm that they do not have to be condemned to Tusk, that there is a majority again in this Sejm, which will also be a certain change, but without everything that Tusk stands for .
Is it possible to change the majority this term?
Politics can be so surprising that I don’t want to play prophet. But I can say that we will consistently look for such an opportunity. It’s hard to do that today, there are emotions and euphoria, we understand that. But in a moment will come the hard work of governing, the need for difficult choices, painful decisions and choices. Then our offer can win in the eyes of some.
For now, there is not only euphoria, but the Sejm is also turning into a TV show with a celebrity in the middle. How do you look at it?
For now I understand. That’s how politics works, because in Ukraine the presidential elections were won by an actor, and we have a TV star as chairman of the Sejm. I give some credit to Mr Hołownia, I believe he takes seriously the announcement of fair and equal treatment of all clubs. For now, unfortunately, we see our fundamental rights being deprived and trying to show us who should represent us. We will not agree to this even if the price would deprive us of our seats in the Presidium of the Sejm and the Senate. I hope that over time, Marshal Hołownia will understand that in this way he will not build the dignity of the Sejm and respect for its work. This condition burdens him more than us.
Marshal Hołownia seems disgusted that PiS MPs sometimes shout from the Sejm benches. He expects you to get better and threatens to call you into a dark room.
I also accept these statements with understanding as a bad start, fascination with the position, evidence of lack of experience. It is clear that the Marshal is sitting in the Sejm for the first time, and what makes him so sad are the normal elements of parliamentary debates around the world. We do not do what the opposition did in our time: we do not behave vulgarly, we do not introduce fights, we do not occupy the stage or the Sejm. Where was he when his current coalition partners organized such brawls?
There should be no parliamentary freeze on projects. Is that possible?
You cannot govern by voting everything at once. The mechanism for building hierarchy and order will probably simply take a different name.
The intention was for the Confederacy to overturn the table, but I guess they sat down for it?
This is what it looks like after the first parliamentary sessions. Grzegorz Braun’s very brutal attack on the chairman of the Sejm, Elżbieta Witek, was significant. Despite the poses and theatrics being played, this political force is part of Tusk’s system, they will play in his orchestra, they will be used to attack us. I wouldn’t want to decide yet whether this is a function of useful idiots or a cynical game. The fact is that the Polish patriots will not be able to count on them in the coming months of the battle for Poland.
Three or even four commissions of inquiry will be set up in no time. Are you afraid of them?
NO. The main conclusion from this information is this: they will want to distract public opinion from the difficulties of governing, the inability to implement their own announcements through political games, and a kind of hunt for people of Law and Justice. What can the committee investigating the alleged ‘visa scandal’ discover? Irregularities on a scale of up to 300 cases of expediting places in the queue, even not issuing visas, have been discovered by Polish state services during our regime. We have not hidden anything, the guilty are being charged and will be brought to justice. Courts. The opposition has blown up this issue, deceived the Poles and will now pursue its fantasies.
One of the committees must investigate an attempt to organize postal elections.
Please. This could be a good forum to unravel what has been built up around these events and I will be happy to take this opportunity. There was no scandal there: we had a dramatic situation, on the one hand a pandemic that was not recognized at the time, and on the other hand a constitutional obligation to organize elections.
I remember how the ‘bars’ on commercial TV channels changed at the time: from ‘Crime! PiS makes its way to the elections” to “Crime! PiS does not organize elections.
The opposition then acted cynically and only wanted to replace the presidential candidate. We have acted in accordance with the law. The matter was investigated by the Supreme Court of Auditors, headed by the President, who was, to say the least, unsympathetic towards us. The conclusions are confusing. We can blame the Prime Minister for wanting to organize the elections, Poczta Polska for adhering to them, and me for not having concluded the elections. However, there seems to be a bit of a lack of logic here.
In addition to investigative committees, they use clearly illegal instruments: attempting to take power in the public media, bypassing the legally authorized National Media Council, replacing members of the National Council for the Judiciary through resolutions, or announcing the use of such a delicate instrument as the State Tribunal to “expel” the NBP President. How does the minister assess these communications?
They have the word “Constitution” printed on their T-shirts, slogans about the rule of law have never come out of their mouths, and today they believe that a simple parliamentary majority will rule terms of office, procedures, independent institutions, laws, the Constitution and even invalidates the constitution. European law, which concerns, for example, the term of office of the governor of the central bank. With resolutions they want to change not only the laws, but even the constitution. Donald Tusk even goes so far as to threaten the use of force and send some strong people to remove state officials from their offices because that is what he wants. It’s clear they have a big problem with democracy. This is a very dangerous direction.
How are you going to respond?
We will oppose it with all our might, we will not remain silent, we will use all the means at our disposal. I also warn, following Minister Zbigniew Ziobro: if they break the law, they will have to answer for it. Because they know that, despite all this propaganda, we have not violated the Constitution or the law, Mr. Andrzej Morozowski recently admitted this on TVN, and many such statements are still being made today. The accusations against our camp in this area were lies.
What is the future for Law and Justice? What changes? Anyone who knows Polish politics knows how much the departure of President Jarosław Kaczyński would weaken this camp.
That’s true. The president unites this camp, which is in fact very diverse. He has unquestionable authority, a lot of experience, he has led us to many victories and he has excellent political insight. We desperately need this now, because the transition to the opposition obviously brings with it some tensions. I hope that he will continue to serve in this position not only until the end of his term of office, i.e. until 2025, but also longer. We face the great challenge of looking for new channels of communication with Poland, a new language, new forms of communication and a new program that would also attract groups that reject us today.
Do you think the political calendar – local elections in six months’ time, then the European elections and then the presidential elections – is favourable?
The advantage is that our camp will immediately enter into the political battle. The downside will be the effect of the parliamentary elections, which we won but did not have the chance to form a government. The effects of the Liberal government have yet to be revealed. I believe we can overcome this and achieve a good result.
Source: wPolityce