“Mr Overbeek is not a historian. It is also impossible to talk about his journalistic workshop, because the job of the journalist is to reliably verify information and check the facts about which one wants to publish something. Mr Overbeek did not do that. Therefore, if you ask whether this is a deliberate game, I can answer: yes, it is a deliberate game with a specific effect, which is to undermine the authority of Saint John Paul II and to cause confusion. – says Sebastian Karczewski, publicist of “Nasze Dziennik”, editor-in-chief of the monthly magazine “Non Possumus”, in an interview with the portal wPolityce.pl. Imperative”.
wPolityce.pl: Many historians, experts and journalists did not leave a dry thread on the report and book attacking Cardinal. Sapieha and John Paul II. It turns out that unreliable and even forged “documents” of the security service were used for this discrediting. Even assuming minimal goodwill, the question would arise whether this was the result of a workshop error. Or do you think it is a deliberate game?
red. Sebastian Karczewski: The situation is different when a historian deals with such documents than when a journalist uses them. Then we have a different approach and requirements. By using his technique correctly, the historian can evaluate the available material. Of course, a journalist has the right to use such material and has the right to publish information on this topic. Before that, however, he is obliged to carefully verify them. If it is historical material, it should refer to the wider context and use the verification of historians. I too, for example in the case of Archbishop Wielgus, have dealt with such material, but despite some of my own findings, before publishing anything, I have approached experts, historians and lawyers with them to listen to their views, their views on a particular issue and only then did I think I had a fairly complete picture of the situation.
Mr. Overbeek notes the contents of the documents, but does not verify them. Anyway, if we leaf through his book, we can see that there is no reference to the entire context. I mean the history of the Archdiocese of Cracow, but especially the historical context, with a clear emphasis on the fact that we are talking about the equipment of the security service, established in a totalitarian system with the aim of fighting the Catholic Church. I am therefore not surprised that historians have not left a dry thread to such interpretations. Mr Overbeek is not a historian. It is also impossible to talk about his journalistic workshop, because the job of the journalist is to reliably verify information and check the facts about which one wants to publish something. Mr Overbeek did not do that. Therefore, if you ask whether this is a deliberate game, I can answer: yes, it is a deliberate game with a specific effect, which is to undermine the authority of Saint John Paul II and to cause confusion.
Or perhaps it was hoped that correctly presented SB-origin lies would work in the absence of the proper knowledge and preparation of a wider audience? At the same time, it would be worth asking what will happen in the future, when it can be assumed that their verification and contextualization will be much more difficult over the years.
Of course, most recipients of this type of material do not have such knowledge. But that’s what journalists are for, that’s what historians are for, to bring this knowledge closer. At the same time, it should be borne in mind that the average recipient cannot verify such things. Therefore, journalists can be expected to present it in an honest and reliable manner. Ekke Overbeek uses the situation that the average person cannot verify the information in the material. Therefore, here we can talk about the malicious use of the receiver. And it is a conscious game. It works more or less like this: we start from a certain statement, and then we look for material to make it believable, and we interpret it in a certain way so that it ‘works’ as well as possible. The point is to put everything together in such a way that the reader is convinced that the lie is the truth.
I would like to point out that some years ago priests and bishops were attacked with the documents of the security service. At that time it was done in the same way: in the case of a priest, we interpret the same documents against him, and in the case of a politician, the case was justified by a “different political situation” and explained by the corresponding “circumstances”. When the subject was a bit “exhausted”, the clergy were attacked with allegations of pedophilia, sexual harassment – that someone was hiding and covering up such crimes. Now it seems that attempts are being made to connect the threads of intimidation to the files of the security service. In my opinion, as a journalist, this is intentional. Is it a coincidence that almost exactly at the same time TVN’s Marcin Gutowski is preparing a film in which St. John Paul II, and Ekke Overbeek is supporting him with a book? This is certainly no coincidence.
So why John Paul II and why now?
Nearly four years ago in the book “Pedophilia in the Church. Faces of Lies”, describing the attacks on priests with allegations of sexual harassment and pedophilia, I pointed out that “if we don’t wake up, there will only be a frontal attack will take place”. That’s the kind of test we’re dealing with here. There was no right answer to false accusations and we have what we have today. Why this Pope? I once said that the figure of Saint John Paul II is our national heritage, not only when it comes to the 20th century, but the whole history of Christianity in Poland. It is impossible to understand this nation, Poland without Christianity, without the Church. I will say more: today it is impossible to understand the history of Poland and the identity of Poland without St. John Paul II and his pontificate. If we consider John Paul II as the greatest man of this Polish church, beating him can be seen as an attack on our history and our national identity. Why this way? Many people have found that rational arguments cannot undermine the teachings of John Paul II. And if so, then you have to make a personal attack, on the principle: “if he is bad, if he is hiding something, how can we believe him?”. Someone once said that for those who have no arguments, insults are an argument. And now we see it.
This attack is also about the young generation. The elderly remember the Pope from Poland. They were eyewitnesses. They saw John Paul II and listened to his words. They also had time to analyze his teachings. They know his pontificate and his work. They remember the “Santo Subito” banners set up in St. Peter’s Square, which also caused no doubts for them. On the other hand, the young generation does not know it, or hardly knows it at all. The 18th anniversary of his death has just passed, so those entering adult life today have not yet appeared in this world at the time of John Paul II’s death, or were only a few months old. So I think it’s about distorting the minds of the young generation in such a way that they see the figure of the Polish pope in the opposite perspective than their parents and grandparents saw him. I think this is also one of the goals of this attack. It is impossible not to notice that the next World Youth Day is approaching. On this occasion, it would be appropriate to talk to young people, point them out and refer to John Paul II, who came up with the idea of these gatherings. And I think this is also a deliberate action to avoid this, to pass on a false image of the Pope to the new generation, created from dubious documents, instead of teaching John Paul II.
You spoke earlier, within the scope of SB documents, about the Archbishop Stanisław Wielgus case, you are the author of the book “Attack on the Archbishop. Behind the scenes of a great mystification. The subject of the accusations also differed, in addition to the position of the church history commission and the proclamation of the archbishop himself, which spoke of establishing relations with the services.
There were other circumstances. But it was actually the first attack on such a scale against the documents of the Security Service, and of course we were dealing with great fiction. Why? Note that the Church History Commission, which was to confirm this, was the collaboration of Fr. Wielgus from the security service gathered almost ad hoc and made his announcement within two days. This is what we talked about at the beginning of our conversation and what historians note in the case of Ekke Overbeek’s publication. How can the contents of the documents be verified, determined and confirmed in such a short time in two days? When it comes to events from a few decades ago, that possibility does not exist in principle. Anyway, as it turned out later, also in the court case, the members of the church history commission did not sign the said communiqué, because it was a document prepared by a completely different agency. So we were dealing with scams. One more thing about the reaction. Well, the author was not Archbishop Stanisław Wielgus either. He didn’t prepare it. I described it in detail in my book, and the Archbishop himself also spoke about it. This case thus shows how public opinion can be manipulated by creating a fictional “reality”. That was the case in that case and the same is now being done by Mr Overbeek and Mr Gutowski in the cases of charges against John Paul II.
It should be emphasized at this point that even if we believed one hundred percent in the contents of the SB files, this does not relieve us of the obligation to verify them. Our belief in these documents is irrelevant here. Evidence is important. A journalist cannot pass on information based on his beliefs. The basis must be verified facts. Otherwise we are dealing with manipulation.
READ ALSO:
— Marzena Nykiel: They wanted St. John Paul II and card. sapieha. But security cases had been hit before
— Michał Karnowski: The Ubeki lie collapsed because the Poles mobilized. How many victims have run off with this media machine of contempt?
– ONLY HERE. The president of the Institute for National Remembrance at Overbeek: He causes great damage to the victims of pedophilia. Action aimed at the image of John Paul II
– In defense of JPII. Experts crush the Dutch journalist’s book and the TVN report! ‘Overbeek’s message contradicts itself’
– Fake news from GW and TVN. “Rz” Reveals: Security Documents to Discredit Card. Sapieha was probably forged
Interviewed by Adam Kacprzak
Source: wPolityce