“The Russians have lost a lot. The nations threatened by them put aside the feuds that arose from historical memory” – says Prof. Przemysław Żurawski aka Grajewski in an interview with the wPolityce.pl portal.
wPolityce.pl: Has there been a lasting change for the better in Polish-Ukrainian relations?
Prof. Żurawski aka Grajewski: We can talk about such a change, and it is not the result of the digressions of some small elites, but of the indisputable fact that millions of Ukrainian refugees in Poland came into contact with millions of Poles, and of the impact on Polish public opinion of the war in Ukraine with all the atrocities committed by the Russians. And they revived the Polish national memory of wars with Russia and similar atrocities experienced by our ancestors. A far-reaching sense of shared destiny was born. Ukraine today is something like Poland of previous decades or centuries. It is in the role that our country used to play. I think the vast majority of our compatriots are aware that in the event of the collapse of Ukraine, Poland will be next. What did the late Mr. President Lech Kaczynski. And history proves it. The conquest of Kiev by the Muscovites was always a prelude to the further march to the west and the conquest of other Commonwealth territories. There is no reason to doubt that this scenario could be repeated. All the more so that Russia is officially manifesting such ambitions. It brings the two nations closer together. This is not a matter of statements by a narrow class of politicians, and is widely felt on both sides of the border.
We are constantly dealing with Russian disinformation. This also applies to the history of relations with Russia. The Kremlin promotes the proposition that since the establishment of the People’s Republic of Poland we are dealing with a Polish state ruled by Polish communists.
This is a good point to consider. Polish political science could not deal with this without developing the right terminology. I believe that given the difference between the different eras into which the history of the People’s Republic of Poland is divided, it was an agent state. It was not a satellite or client state. At the same time, if we consider the Vichy state as a vassal state, we should point out that Marshal Pétain was really a World War I hero who won the battle of Verdun. It was he who was entrusted with the post of head of the French state in such a way that the National Assembly elected by defeat put power in his hands. The Vichy state was an emanation of French state elites who had given in to foreign violence. But they were not Abwehr agents, just as Bierut was an NKVD agent. This also applied to Ante Pavelić in Croatia as a satellite state of the Third Reich. Nor was he an agent of the German services, but an emanation of the Croatian elite. The satellite states of the Third Reich were not created by Abwehr agents. The Soviet-dominated states, on the other hand, were created by agents of their services. This is a fundamental difference. This system was maintained for the duration on a co-optation basis for pre-installed agents. The effectiveness and extent of the repression varied over the decades, but it led to the end. Opponents were physically killed. PRL lasted as long as it could physically blackmail Poland with Soviet intervention. When the credibility of this kind of blackmail ran out, the system didn’t last for months.
Will Russia still have great political influence in our region, namely in Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia? Or maybe the war in Ukraine solved some problems?
The Russians lost a lot. The nations threatened by them put aside the feuds born of historical memory. The best example of this today is excellent Polish-Lithuanian relations. Of course, nothing is ever 100% certain, because humans are imperfect, but in terms of relations between states, the situation is perfect. Awareness of the real Russian threat is common among Lithuania’s decision-making elite. Cooperation and consolidation of threatened nations makes the cooperation of Poland and the Baltic States in the NATO or European Union forum a major achievement. The Balts do what they can. Considering their GDP, these countries’ aid to Ukraine is impressive. We have good and improving relations with the Czech Republic. Unfortunately, the situation in Hungary has deteriorated. And it goes against Polish and Hungarian traditions. Russia is losing in our region. And the accession of Finland and Sweden to NATO is also very important. This means cooperation with the largest country in the region, Poland. The two largest countries in the region – Poland and Ukraine – are united in their perception of Russia. Ukraine today has the best army on the continent, the only one with war experience against an equal opponent. Poland has an increasingly better and more modern army. These are the two largest military forces in the region determined to oppose Russia. And they are deadly determined. Surrender means destruction after the laying down of arms. It would end with a bullet in politics. Our realization that there is no other way to save than to fight is also the loss of Russia. And it doesn’t return.
What about the situation in Belarus?
There is a big question mark here. It is a country that is centrally located in our region. There is great potential to reverse the situation. The 2020 uprising, like the first “Solidarity” in Poland, was suppressed with martial law. But this does not mean that people have returned to the mental state before the moment of rebellion. It’s irreversible. And we know that from our own experience. In Poland nothing was the same as before 1980. Greater repression could only make the situation worse. Russia loses everywhere.
Tomasz Karpowicz spoke
Source: wPolityce